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Transcript: Third Presidential Debate
Arizona State University, Tempe, Ariz.
October 13, 2004
Following is a transcript of the third and final presidential debate between between President Bush (R) and Sen. John F. Kerry (D)
Bob SCHIEFFER:ÊGood evening from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona.ÊI'm Bob Schieffer of CBS News.ÊI want to welcome you to the third and last of the 2004 debates between President George Bush and Senator John Kerry.
As Jim Lehrer told you before the first one, these debates are sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates.
Tonight the topic will be domestic affairs, but the format will be the same as that first debate.ÊI'll moderate our discussion under detailed rules agreed to by the candidates, but the questions and the areas to be covered were chosen by me.ÊI have not told the candidates or anyone else what they are.
To refresh your memory on the rules, I will ask a question.ÊThe candidate is allowed two minutes to answer.ÊHis opponent then has a minute and a half to offer a rebuttal.
At my discretion, I can extend the discussion by offering each candidate an additional 30 seconds.
A green light will come on to signal the candidate has 30 seconds left.ÊA yellow light signals 15 seconds left.ÊA red light means five seconds left.
SCHIEFFER:ÊThere is also a buzzer, if it is needed.
The candidates may not question each other directly.ÊThere are no opening statements, but there will be two-minute closing statements.
There is an audience here tonight, but they have agreed to remain silent, except for right now, when they join me in welcoming President George Bush and Senator John Kerry.
(APPLAUSE)
SCHIEFFER:ÊGentleman, welcome to you both.Ê
By coin toss, the first question goes to Senator Kerry.
Senator, I want to set the stage for this discussion by asking the question that I think hangs over all of our politics today and is probably on the minds of many people watching this debate tonight.Ê
And that is, will our children and grandchildren ever live in a world as safe and secure as the world in which we grew up?
KERRY:ÊWell, first of all, Bob, thank you for moderating tonight.Ê
Thank you, Arizona State, for welcoming us.Ê
And thank you to the Presidential Commission for undertaking this enormous task.ÊWe're proud to be here.Ê
Mr. President, I'm glad to be here with you again to share similarities and differences with the American people.
Will we ever be safe and secure again?ÊYes.ÊWe absolutely must be.ÊThat's the goal.
Now, how do we achieve it is the most critical component of it.Ê
I believe that this president, regrettably, rushed us into a war, made decisions about foreign policy, pushed alliances away.ÊAnd, as a result, America is now bearing this extraordinary burden where we are not as safe as we ought to be.
KERRY:ÊThe measurement is not:ÊAre we safer?ÊThe measurement is:ÊAre we as safe as we ought to be?ÊAnd there are a host of options that this president had available to him, like making sure that at all our ports in America containers are inspected.ÊOnly 95 percent of them -- 95 percent come in today uninspected.ÊThat's not good enough.
People who fly on airplanes today, the cargo hold is not X-rayed, but the baggage is.ÊThat's not good enough.ÊFirehouses don't have enough firefighters in them.ÊPolice officers are being cut from the streets of America because the president decided to cut the COPS program.
So we can do a better job of homeland security.ÊI can do a better job of waging a smarter, more effective war on terror and guarantee that we will go after the terrorists.
KERRY:ÊI will hunt them down, and we'll kill them, we'll capture them.ÊWe'll do whatever is necessary to be safe.
But I pledge this to you, America:ÊI will do it in the way that Franklin Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and John Kennedy and others did, where we build the strongest alliances, where the world joins together, where we have the best intelligence and where we are able, ultimately, to be more safe and secure.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, you have 90 seconds.
BUSH:ÊThank you very much.Ê
I want to thank Arizona State as well.
Yes, we can be safe and secure, if we stay on the offense against the terrorists and if we spread freedom and liberty around the world.Ê
I have got a comprehensive strategy to not only chase down the Al Qaida, wherever it exists -- and we're making progress; three-quarters of Al Qaida leaders have been brought to justice -- but to make sure that countries that harbor terrorists are held to account.
As a result of securing ourselves and ridding the Taliban out of Afghanistan, the Afghan people had elections this weekend.ÊAnd the first voter was a 19-year-old woman.ÊThink about that.ÊFreedom is on the march.
We held to account a terrorist regime in Saddam Hussein.Ê
BUSH:ÊIn other words, in order to make sure we're secure, there must be a comprehensive plan.Ê
My opponent just this weekend talked about how terrorism could be reduced to a nuisance, comparing it to prostitution, illegal gambling. I think that attitude and that point of view is dangerous.ÊI don't think you can secure America for the long run if you don't have a comprehensive view as to how to defeat these people.
At home, we'll do everything we can to protect the homeland.ÊI signed the homeland security bill to better align our assets and resources.ÊMy opponent voted against it.Ê
We're doing everything we can to protect our borders and ports.
But absolutely we can be secure in the long run.ÊIt just takes good, strong leadership.
SCHIEFFER:ÊAnything to add, Senator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊYes.ÊWhen the president had an opportunity to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, he took his focus off of them, outsourced the job to Afghan warlords, and Osama bin Laden escaped.
KERRY:ÊSix months after he said Osama bin Laden must be caught dead or alive, this president was asked, "Where is Osama bin Laden?" He said, "I don't know.ÊI don't really think about him very much. I'm not that concerned."Ê
We need a president who stays deadly focused on the real war on terror.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊGosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden.ÊIt's kind of one of those exaggerations.Ê
Of course we're worried about Osama bin Laden.ÊWe're on the hunt after Osama bin Laden.ÊWe're using every asset at our disposal to get Osama bin Laden.Ê
My opponent said this war is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement.ÊNo, this war is a matter of using every asset at our disposal to keep the American people protected.
SCHIEFFER:ÊNew question, Mr. President, to you.Ê
We are talking about protecting ourselves from the unexpected, but the flu season is suddenly upon us.ÊFlu kills thousands of people every year.Ê
Suddenly we find ourselves with a severe shortage of flu vaccine. How did that happen?
BUSH:ÊBob, we relied upon a company out of England to provide about half of the flu vaccines for the United States citizen, and it turned out that the vaccine they were producing was contaminated.ÊAnd so we took the right action and didn't allow contaminated medicine into our country.
We're working with Canada to hopefully -- that they'll produce a -- help us realize the vaccine necessary to make sure our citizens have got flu vaccinations during this upcoming season.
My call to our fellow Americans is if you're healthy, if you're younger, don't get a flu shot this year.ÊHelp us prioritize those who need to get the flu shot, the elderly and the young.Ê
BUSH:ÊThe CDC, responsible for health in the United States, is setting those priorities and is allocating the flu vaccine accordingly.Ê
I haven't gotten a flu shot, and I don't intend to because I want to make sure those who are most vulnerable get treated.Ê
We have a problem with litigation in the United States of America.ÊVaccine manufacturers are worried about getting sued, and therefore they have backed off from providing this kind of vaccine.Ê
One of the reasons I'm such a strong believer in legal reform is so that people aren't afraid of producing a product that is necessary for the health of our citizens and then end up getting sued in a court of law.Ê
But the best thing we can do now, Bob, given the circumstances with the company in England is for those of us who are younger and healthy, don't get a flu shot.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊThis really underscores the problem with the American health-care system.ÊIt's not working for the American family.ÊAnd it's gotten worse under President Bush over the course of the last years.
Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country.ÊYou've got about a million right here in Arizona, just shy, 950,000, who have no health insurance at all.Ê82,000 Arizonians lost their health insurance under President Bush's watch.Ê223,000 kids in Arizona have no health insurance at all.
All across our country -- go to Ohio, 1.4 million Ohioans have no health insurance, 114,000 of them lost it under President Bush; Wisconsin, 82,000, Wisconsites lost it under President Bush.Ê
This president has turned his back on the wellness of America. And there is no system.ÊIn fact, it's starting to fall apart not because of lawsuits -- though they are a problem, and John Edwards and I are committed to fixing them -- but because of the larger issue that we don't cover Americans.
KERRY:ÊChildren across our country don't have health care. We're the richest country on the face of the planet, the only industrialized nation in the world not to do it.Ê
I have a plan to cover all Americans.ÊWe're going to make it affordable and accessible.ÊWe're going to let everybody buy into the same health-care plan senators and congressmen give themselves.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, would you like to add something?
BUSH:ÊI would.ÊThank you.
I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for.Ê
He just said he wants everybody to be able to buy in to the same plan that senators and congressmen get.ÊThat costs the government $7,700 per family.ÊIf every family in America signed up, like the senator suggested, if would cost us $5 trillion over 10 years.Ê
It's an empty promise.ÊIt's called bait and switch.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊTime's up.
BUSH:ÊThank you.
KERRY:ÊActually, it's not an empty promise.Ê
KERRY:ÊIt's really interesting, because the president used that very plan as a reason for seniors to accept his prescription drug plan.ÊHe said, if it's good enough for the congressmen and senators to have choice, seniors ought to have choice.Ê
What we do is we have choice.ÊI choose Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Other senators, other congressmen choose other programs.
But the fact is, we're going to help Americans be able to buy into it.ÊThose that can afford it are going to buy in themselves. We're not giving this away for nothing.
SCHIEFFER:ÊAll right.Ê
Senator Kerry, a new question.ÊLet's talk about economic security.ÊYou pledged during the last debate that you would not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 a year.ÊBut the price of everything is going up, and we all know it.ÊHealth care costs, as you all talking about, is skyrocketing, the cost of the war.
My question is, how can you or any president, whoever is elected next time, keep that pledge without running this country deeper into debt and passing on more of the bills that we're running up to our children?
KERRY:ÊI'll tell you exactly how I can do it:Êby reinstating what President Bush took away, which is called pay as you go.Ê
During the 1990s, we had pay-as-you-go rules.ÊIf you were going to pass something in the Congress, you had to show where you are going to pay for it and how.Ê
President Bush has taken -- he's the only president in history to do this.Ê
He's also the only president in 72 years to lose jobs -- 1.6 million jobs lost.ÊHe's the only president to have incomes of families go down for the last three years; the only president to see exports go down; the only president to see the lowest level of business investment in our country as it is today.Ê
Now, I'm going to reverse that.ÊI'm going to change that.ÊWe're going to restore the fiscal discipline we had in the 1990s.Ê
Every plan that I have laid out -- my health-care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those.Ê
KERRY:ÊAnd we start -- we don't do it exclusively -- but we start by rolling back George Bush's unaffordable tax cut for the wealthiest people, people earning more than $200,000 a year, and we pass, hopefully, the McCain-Kerry Commission which identified some $60 billion that we can get.
We shut the loophole which has American workers actually subsidizing the loss of their own job.ÊThey just passed an expansion of that loophole in the last few days:Ê$43 billion of giveaways, including favors to the oil and gas industry and the people importing ceiling fans from China.
I'm going to stand up and fight for the American worker.ÊAnd I am going to do it in a way that's fiscally sound.ÊI show how I pay for the health care, how we pay for the education.
KERRY:ÊI have a manufacturing jobs credit.ÊWe pay for it by shutting that loophole overseas.ÊWe raise the student loans.ÊI pay for it by changing the relationship with the banks.
This president has never once vetoed one bill; the first president in a hundred years not to do that.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
KERRY:ÊWell, his rhetoric doesn't match his record.
He been a senator for 20 years.ÊHe voted to increase taxes 98 times.ÊWhen they tried to reduce taxes, he voted against that 127 times.ÊHe talks about being a fiscal conservative, or fiscally sound, but he voted over -- he voted 277 times to waive the budget caps, which would have cost the taxpayers $4.2 trillion.
He talks about PAYGO.ÊI'll tell you what PAYGO means, when you're a senator from Massachusetts, when you're a colleague of Ted Kennedy, pay go means:ÊYou pay, and he goes ahead and spends.
BUSH:ÊHe's proposed $2.2 trillion of new spending, and yet the so-called tax on the rich, which is also a tax on many small-business owners in America, raises $600 million by our account -- billion, $800 billion by his account.Ê
There is a tax gap.ÊAnd guess who usually ends up filling the tax gap?ÊThe middle class.
I propose a detailed budget, Bob.ÊI sent up my budget man to the Congress, and he says, here's how we're going to reduce the deficit in half by five years.ÊIt requires pro-growth policies that grow our economy and fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress.
SCHIEFFER:ÊLet's go to a new question, Mr. President.ÊTwo minutes.ÊAnd let's continue on jobs.
You know, there are all kind of statistics out there, but I want to bring it down to an individual.Ê
Mr. President, what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States?
BUSH:ÊI'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century.ÊAnd here's some help for you to go get an education.ÊHere's some help for you to go to a community college.Ê
We've expanded trade adjustment assistance.ÊWe want to help pay for you to gain the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century.
You know, there's a lot of talk about how to keep the economy growing.ÊWe talk about fiscal matters.ÊBut perhaps the best way to keep jobs here in America and to keep this economy growing is to make sure our education system works.
I went to Washington to solve problems.ÊAnd I saw a problem in the public education system in America.ÊThey were just shuffling too many kids through the system, year after year, grade after grade, without learning the basics.
And so we said:ÊLet's raise the standards.ÊWe're spending more money, but let's raise the standards and measure early and solve problems now, before it's too late.
BUSH:ÊNo, education is how to help the person who's lost a job. Education is how to make sure we've got a workforce that's productive and competitive.
Got four more years, I've got more to do to continue to raise standards, to continue to reward teachers and school districts that are working, to emphasize math and science in the classrooms, to continue to expand Pell Grants to make sure that people have an opportunity to start their career with a college diploma.
And so the person you talked to, I say, here's some help, here's some trade adjustment assistance money for you to go a community college in your neighborhood, a community college which is providing the skills necessary to fill the jobs of the 21st century.ÊAnd that's what I would say to that person.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊI want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally.Ê
Let me come back in one moment to that, but I want to speak for a second, if I can, to what the president said about fiscal responsibility.
KERRY:ÊBeing lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country.
(LAUGHTER)
This president has taken a $5.6 trillion surplus and turned it into deficits as far as the eye can see.ÊHealth-care costs for the average American have gone up 64 percent; tuitions have gone up 35 percent; gasoline prices up 30 percent; Medicare premiums went up 17 percent a few days ago; prescription drugs are up 12 percent a year.Ê
But guess what, America?ÊThe wages of Americans have gone down. The jobs that are being created in Arizona right now are paying about $13,700 less than the jobs that we're losing.Ê
And the president just walks on by this problem.ÊThe fact is that he's cut job-training money.Ê$1 billion was cut.ÊThey only added a little bit back this year because it's an election year.Ê
They've cut the Pell Grants and the Perkins loans to help kids be able to go to college.Ê
KERRY:ÊThey've cut the training money.ÊThey've wound up not even extending unemployment benefits and not even extending health care to those people who are unemployed.
I'm going to do those things, because that's what's right in America:ÊHelp workers to transition in every respect.
SCHIEFFER:ÊNew question to you, Senator Kerry, two minutes.ÊAnd it's still on jobs.ÊYou know, many experts say that a president really doesn't have much control over jobs.ÊFor example, if someone invents a machine that does the work of five people, that's progress. That's not the president's fault.
So I ask you, is it fair to blame the administration entirely for this loss of jobs?
KERRY:ÊI don't blame them entirely for it.ÊI blame the president for the things the president could do that has an impact on it.
Outsourcing is going to happen.ÊI've acknowledged that in union halls across the country.ÊI've had shop stewards stand up and say, "Will you promise me you're going to stop all this outsourcing?"ÊAnd I've looked them in the eye and I've said, "No, I can't do that."
KERRY:ÊWhat I can promise you is that I will make the playing field as fair as possible, that I will, for instance, make certain that with respect to the tax system that you as a worker in America are not subsidizing the loss of your job.
Today, if you're an American business, you actually get a benefit for going overseas.ÊYou get to defer your taxes.Ê
So if you're looking at a competitive world, you say to yourself, "Hey, I do better overseas than I do here in America."Ê
That's not smart.ÊI don't want American workers subsidizing the loss of their own job.ÊAnd when I'm president, we're going to shut that loophole in a nanosecond and we're going to use that money to lower corporate tax rates in America for all corporations, 5 percent. And we're going to have a manufacturing jobs credit and a job hiring credit so we actually help people be able to hire here.
The second thing that we can do is provide a fair trade playing field.ÊThis president didn't stand up for Boeing when Airbus was violating international rules and subsidies.ÊHe discovered Boeing during the course of this campaign after I'd been talking about it for months.
KERRY:ÊThe fact is that the president had an opportunity to stand up and take on China for currency manipulation.ÊThere are companies that wanted to petition the administration.ÊThey were told: Don't even bother; we're not going to listen to it.
The fact is that there have been markets shut to us that we haven't stood up and fought for.ÊI'm going to fight for a fair trade playing field for the American worker.ÊAnd I will fight for the American worker just as hard as I fight for my own job.ÊThat's what the American worker wants.ÊAnd if we do that, we can have an impact.
Plus, we need fiscal discipline.ÊRestore fiscal discipline, we'll do a lot better.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊWhew!Ê
Let me start with the Pell Grants.ÊIn his last litany of misstatements.ÊHe said we cut Pell Grants.ÊWe've increased Pell Grants by a million students.ÊThat's a fact.Ê
BUSH:ÊYou know, he talks to the workers.ÊLet me talk to the workers.Ê
You've got more money in your pocket as a result of the tax relief we passed and he opposed.Ê
If you have a child, you got a $1,000 child credit.ÊThat's money in your pocket.Ê
If you're married, we reduced the marriage penalty.ÊThe code ought to encourage marriage, not discourage marriage.Ê
We created a 10 percent bracket to help lower-income Americans. A family of four making $40,000 received about $1,700 in tax relief.Ê
It's your money.ÊThe way my opponent talks, he said, "We're going to spend the government's money."ÊNo, we're spending your money.ÊAnd when you have more money in your pocket, you're able to better afford things you want.Ê
I believe the role of government is to stand side by side with our citizens to help them realize their dreams, not tell citizens how to live their lives.Ê
My opponent talks about fiscal sanity.ÊHis record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric.
BUSH:ÊHe voted to increase taxes 98 times and to bust the budget 277 times.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊBob, anybody can play with these votes.ÊEverybody knows that.
I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times.ÊI broke with my party in order to balance the budget, and Ronald Reagan signed into law the tax cut that we voted for.ÊI voted for IRA tax cuts.ÊI voted for small-business tax cuts.
But you know why the Pell Grants have gone up in their numbers? Because more people qualify for them because they don't have money.Ê
But they're not getting the $5,100 the president promised them. They're getting less money.Ê
We have more people who qualify.ÊThat's not what we want.
BUSH:ÊSenator, no one's playing with your votes.ÊYou voted to increase taxes 98 times.ÊWhen they voted -- when they proposed reducing taxes, you voted against it 126 times.Ê
BUSH:ÊHe voted to violate the budget cap 277 times.ÊYou know, there's a main stream in American politics and you sit right on the far left bank.ÊAs a matter of fact, your record is such that Ted Kennedy, your colleague, is the conservative senator from Massachusetts.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here.Ê
Both of you are opposed to gay marriage.ÊBut to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question.ÊDo you believe homosexuality is a choice?
BUSH:ÊYou know, Bob, I don't know.ÊI just don't know.ÊI do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity.ÊIt's important that we do that.
And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live.
BUSH:ÊAnd that's to be honored.
But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage.ÊI believe in the sanctity of marriage.ÊI think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman.
I proposed a constitutional amendment.ÊThe reason I did so was because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution.
It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process.ÊAfter all, when you amend the Constitution, state legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution.
I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and not the citizenry of the United States.ÊYou know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act.
BUSH:ÊMy opponent was against it.ÊIt basically protected states from the action of one state to another.ÊIt also defined marriage as between a man and woman.Ê
But I'm concerned that that will get overturned.ÊAnd if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊWe're all God's children, Bob.ÊAnd I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.Ê
I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice.ÊI've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it.Ê
And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them.
KERRY:ÊI think we have to respect that.Ê
The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman.ÊI believe that.ÊI believe marriage is between a man and a woman.
But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace.ÊYou can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people.Ê
You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital.ÊYou have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth.
Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws.ÊAnd they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry, a new question for you.Ê
The New York Times reports that some Catholic archbishops are telling their church members that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research.Ê
What is your reaction to that?
KERRY:ÊI respect their views.ÊI completely respect their views. I am a Catholic.ÊAnd I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many.Ê
I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith.ÊWhat is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith.Ê
I believe that choice is a woman's choice.ÊIt's between a woman, God and her doctor.ÊAnd that's why I support that.Ê
Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.
KERRY:ÊThe president has never said whether or not he would do that.ÊBut we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to.
I will not.ÊI will defend the right of Roe v. Wade.
Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic.ÊI was an altar boy.ÊI know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me.
And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president.ÊI'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic."
My faith affects everything that I do, in truth.ÊThere's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds?ÊFaith without works is dead."
And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people.
That's why I fight against poverty.ÊThat's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth.
KERRY:ÊThat's why I fight for equality and justice.ÊAll of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith.
But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊI think it's important to promote a culture of life.ÊI think a hospitable society is a society where every being counts and every person matters.
I believe the ideal world is one in which every child is protected in law and welcomed to life.ÊI understand there's great differences on this issue of abortion, but I believe reasonable people can come together and put good law in place that will help reduce the number of abortions.
Take, for example, the ban on partial birth abortion.ÊIt's a brutal practice.ÊPeople from both political parties came together in the halls of Congress and voted overwhelmingly to ban that practice. It made a lot of sense.ÊMy opponent, in that he's out of the mainstream, voted against that law.
BUSH:ÊWhat I'm saying is is that as we promote life and promote a culture of life, surely there are ways we can work together to reduce the number of abortions:Êcontinue to promote adoption laws -- it's a great alternative to abortion -- continue to fund and promote maternity group homes; I will continue to promote abstinence programs.Ê
The last debate, my opponent said his wife was involved with those programs.ÊThat's great.ÊI appreciate that very much.ÊAll of us ought to be involved with programs that provide a viable alternative to abortion.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, let's have a new question.ÊIt goes to you.ÊAnd let's get back to economic issues.
Health insurance costs have risen over 36 percent over the last four years according to The Washington Post.ÊWe're paying more. We're getting less.Ê
I would like to ask you:ÊWho bears responsibility for this?ÊIs it the government?ÊIs it the insurance companies?ÊIs it the lawyers? Is it the doctors?ÊIs it the administration?
BUSH:ÊGosh, I sure hope it's not the administration.
There's a -- no, look, there's a systemic problem.ÊHealth care costs are on the rise because the consumers are not involved in the decision-making process.ÊMost health care costs are covered by third parties.ÊAnd therefore, the actual user of health care is not the purchaser of health care.ÊAnd there's no market forces involved with health care.Ê
It's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in what they call health savings accounts.ÊThese are accounts that allow somebody to buy a low-premium, high-deductible catastrophic plan and couple it with tax-free savings.ÊBusinesses can contribute, employees can contribute on a contractual basis.ÊBut this is a way to make sure people are actually involved with the decision-making process on health care.
Secondly, I do believe the lawsuits -- I don't believe, I know -- that the lawsuits are causing health care costs to rise in America. That's why I'm such a strong believer in medical liability reform.
BUSH:ÊIn the last debate, my opponent said those lawsuits only caused the cost to go up by 1 percent.ÊWell, he didn't include the defensive practice of medicine that costs the federal government some $28 billion a year and costs our society between $60 billion and $100 billion a year.Ê
Thirdly, one of the reasons why there's still high cost in medicine is because this is -- they don't use any information technology.ÊIt's like if you looked at the -- it's the equivalent of the buggy and horse days, compared to other industries here in America.Ê
And so, we've got to introduce high technology into health care. We're beginning to do it.ÊWe're changing the language.ÊWe want there to be electronic medical records to cut down on error, as well as reduce cost.Ê
People tell me that when the health-care field is fully integrated with information technology, it'll wring some 20 percent of the cost out of the system.
And finally, moving generic drugs to the market quicker.Ê
And so, those are four ways to help control the costs in health care.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊThe reason health care costs are getting higher, one of the principal reasons is that this administration has stood in the way of common-sense efforts that would have reduced the costs.ÊLet me give you a prime example.
In the Senate we passed the right of Americans to import drugs from Canada.ÊBut the president and his friends took it out in the House, and now you don't have that right.ÊThe president blocked you from the right to have less expensive drugs from Canada.
We also wanted Medicare to be able to negotiate bulk purchasing. The VA does that.ÊThe VA provides lower-cost drugs to our veterans. We could have done that in Medicare.Ê
Medicare is paid for by the American taxpayer.ÊMedicare belongs to you.ÊMedicare is for seniors, who many of them are on fixed income, to lift them out of poverty.Ê
KERRY:ÊBut rather than help you, the taxpayer, have lower cost, rather than help seniors have less expensive drugs, the president made it illegal -- illegal -- for Medicare to actually go out and bargain for lower prices.Ê
Result:Ê$139 billion windfall profit to the drug companies coming out of your pockets.ÊThat's a large part of your 17 percent increase in Medicare premiums.Ê
When I'm president, I'm sending that back to Congress and we're going to get a real prescription drug benefit.
Now, we also have people sicker because they don't have health insurance.ÊSo whether it's diabetes or cancer, they come to hospitals later and it costs America more.
We got to have health care for all Americans.
SCHIEFFER:ÊGo ahead, Mr. President.
BUSH:ÊI think it's important, since he talked about the Medicare plan, has he been in the United States Senate for 20 years?ÊHe has no record on reforming of health care.ÊNo record at all.
He introduced some 300 bills and he's passed five.Ê
BUSH:ÊNo record of leadership.
I came to Washington to solve problems.ÊI was deeply concerned about seniors having to choose between prescription drugs and food. And so I led.ÊAnd in 2006, our seniors will get a prescription drug coverage in Medicare.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?ÊThirty seconds.
KERRY:ÊOnce again, the president is misleading America.ÊI've actually passed 56 individual bills that I've personally written and, in addition to that, and not always under my name, there is amendments on certain bills.
But more importantly, with respect to the question of no record, I helped write -- I did write, I was one of the original authors of the early childhood health care and the expansion of health care that we did in the middle of the 1990s.ÊAnd I'm very proud of that.
So the president's wrong.
SCHIEFFER:ÊLet me direct the next question to you, Senator Kerry, and again, let's stay on health care.
You have, as you have proposed and as the president has commented on tonight, proposed a massive plan to extend health-care coverage to children.ÊYou're also talking about the government picking up a big part of the catastrophic bills that people get at the hospital.
SCHIEFFER:ÊAnd you have said that you can pay for this by rolling back the president's tax cut on the upper 2 percent.Ê
You heard the president say earlier tonight that it's going to cost a whole lot more money than that.Ê
I'd just ask you, where are you going to get the money?
KERRY:ÊWell, two leading national news networks have both said the president's characterization of my health-care plan is incorrect. One called it fiction.ÊThe other called it untrue.
The fact is that my health-care plan, America, is very simple. It gives you the choice.ÊI don't force you to do anything.ÊIt's not a government plan.ÊThe government doesn't require you to do anything. You choose your doctor.ÊYou choose your plan.Ê
If you don't want to take the offer of the plan that I want to put forward, you don't have do.ÊYou can keep what you have today, keep a high deductible, keep high premiums, keep a high co-pay, keep low benefits.
But I got a better plan.ÊAnd I don't think a lot of people are going to want to keep what they have today.Ê
KERRY:ÊHere's what I do:ÊWe take over Medicaid children from the states so that every child in America is covered.ÊAnd in exchange, if the states want to -- they're not forced to, they can choose to -- they cover individuals up to 300 percent of poverty. It's their choice.Ê
I think they'll choose it, because it's a net plus of $5 billion to them.
We allow you -- if you choose to, you don't have to -- but we give you broader competition to allow you to buy into the same health care plan that senators and congressmen give themselves.ÊIf it's good enough for us, it's good enough for every American.ÊI believe that your health care is just as important as any politician in Washington, D.C.Ê
You want to buy into it, you can.ÊWe give you broader competition.ÊThat helps lower prices.
In addition to that, we're going to allow people 55 to 64 to buy into Medicare early.ÊAnd most importantly, we give small business a 50 percent tax credit so that after we lower the costs of health care, they also get, whether they're self-employed or a small business, a lower cost to be able to cover their employees.Ê
KERRY:ÊNow, what happens is when you begin to get people covered like that -- for instance in diabetes, if you diagnose diabetes early, you could save $50 billion in the health care system of America by avoiding surgery and dialysis.ÊIt works.ÊAnd I'm going to offer it to America.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊIn all due respect, I'm not so sure it's credible to quote leading news organizations about -- oh, nevermind.ÊAnyway, let me quote the Lewin report.ÊThe Lewin report is a group of folks who are not politically affiliated.ÊThey analyzed the senator's plan.ÊIt cost $1.2 trillion.Ê
The Lewin report accurately noted that there are going to be 20 million people, over 20 million people added to government-controlled health care.ÊIt would be the largest increase in government health care ever.Ê
BUSH:ÊIf you raise the Medicaid to 300 percent, it provides an incentive for small businesses not to provide private insurance to their employees.ÊWhy should they insure somebody when the government's going to insure it for them?
It's estimated that 8 million people will go from private insurance to government insurance.Ê
We have a fundamental difference of opinion.ÊI think government- run health will lead to poor-quality health, will lead to rationing, will lead to less choice.
Once a health-care program ends up in a line item in the federal government budget, it leads to more controls.Ê
And just look at other countries that have tried to have federally controlled health care.ÊThey have poor-quality health care.Ê
Our health-care system is the envy of the world because we believe in making sure that the decisions are made by doctors and patients, not by officials in the nation's capital.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator?
KERRY:ÊThe president just said that government-run health care results in poor quality.
KERRY:ÊNow, maybe that explains why he hasn't fully funded the VA, and the VA hospital is having trouble, and veterans are complaining.ÊMaybe that explains why Medicare patients are complaining about being pushed off of Medicare.ÊHe doesn't adequately fund it.
But let me just say to America:ÊI am not proposing a government- run program.ÊThat's not what I have.ÊI have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. Senators and congressmen have a wide choice.ÊAmericans ought to have it, too.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊTalk about the VA:ÊWe've increased VA funding by $22 billion in the four years since I've been president.ÊThat's twice the amount that my predecessor increased VA funding.
Of course we're meeting our obligation to our veterans, and the veterans know that.
We're expanding veterans' health care throughout the country. We're aligning facilities where the veterans live now.ÊVeterans are getting very good health care under my administration, and they will continue to do so during the next four years.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, the next question is to you.ÊWe all know that Social Security is running out of money, and it has to be fixed.ÊYou have proposed to fix it by letting people put some of the money collected to pay benefits into private savings accounts.ÊBut the critics are saying that's going to mean finding $1 trillion over the next 10 years to continue paying benefits as those accounts are being set up.Ê
So where do you get the money?ÊAre you going to have to increase the deficit by that much over 10 years?
BUSH:ÊFirst, let me make sure that every senior listening today understands that when we're talking about reforming Social Security, that they'll still get their checks.Ê
I remember the 2000 campaign, people said:Êif George W. gets elected, your check will be taken away.Ê
Well, people got their checks, and they'll continue to get their checks.Ê
There is a problem for our youngsters, a real problem.ÊAnd if we don't act today, the problem will be valued in the trillions.Ê
BUSH:ÊAnd so I think we need to think differently.Ê
We'll honor our commitment to our seniors.ÊBut for our children and our grandchildren, we need to have a different strategy.
And recognizing that, I called together a group of our fellow citizens to study the issue.ÊIt was a committee chaired by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan of New York, a Democrat.ÊAnd they came up with a variety of ideas for people to look at.
I believe that younger workers ought to be allowed to take some of their own money and put it in a personal savings account, because I understand that they need to get better rates of return than the rates of return being given in the current Social Security trust.
And the compounding rate of interest effect will make it more likely that the Social Security system is solvent for our children and our grandchildren.Ê
I will work with Republicans and Democrats.ÊIt'll be a vital issue in my second term.ÊIt is an issue that I am willing to take on, and so I'll bring Republicans and Democrats together.
BUSH:ÊAnd we're of course going to have to consider the costs. But I want to warn my fellow citizens:ÊThe cost of doing nothing, the cost of saying the current system is OK, far exceeds the costs of trying to make sure we save the system for our children.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊYou just heard the president say that young people ought to be able to take money out of Social Security and put it in their own accounts.
Now, my fellow Americans, that's an invitation to disaster.Ê
The CBO said very clearly that if you were to adopt the president's plan, there would be a $2 trillion hole in Social Security, because today's workers pay in to the system for today's retirees.ÊAnd the CBO said -- that's the Congressional Budget Office; it's bipartisan -- they said that there would have to be a cut in benefits of 25 percent to 40 percent.
Now, the president has never explained to America, ever, hasn't done it tonight, where does the transitional money, that $2 trillion, come from?Ê
KERRY:ÊHe's already got $3 trillion, according to The Washington Post, of expenses that he's put on the line from his convention and the promises of this campaign, none of which are paid for.ÊNot one of them are paid for.Ê
The fact is that the president is driving the largest deficits in American history.ÊHe's broken the pay-as-you-go rules.Ê
I have a record of fighting for fiscal responsibility.ÊIn 1985, I was one of the first Democrats -- broke with my party.ÊWe balanced the budget in the '90s.ÊWe paid down the debt for two years.Ê
And that's what we're going to do.ÊWe're going to protect Social Security.ÊI will not privatize it.ÊI will not cut the benefits.ÊAnd we're going to be fiscally responsible.ÊAnd we will take care of Social Security.
SCHIEFFER:ÊLet me just stay on Social Security with a new question for Senator Kerry, because, Senator Kerry, you have just said you will not cut benefits.Ê
Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, says there's no way that Social Security can pay retirees what we have promised them unless we recalibrate.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊWhat he's suggesting, we're going to cut benefits or we're going to have to raise the retirement age.ÊWe may have to take some other reform.ÊBut if you've just said, you've promised no changes, does that mean you're just going to leave this as a problem, another problem for our children to solve?
KERRY:ÊNot at all.ÊAbsolutely not, Bob.ÊThis is the same thing we heard -- remember, I appeared on "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert in 1990-something.ÊWe heard the same thing.ÊWe fixed it.
In fact, we put together a $5.6 trillion surplus in the '90s that was for the purpose of saving Social Security.ÊIf you take the tax cut that the president of the United States has given -- President Bush gave to Americans in the top 1 percent of America -- just that tax cut that went to the top 1 percent of America would have saved Social Security until the year 2075.
The president decided to give it to the wealthiest Americans in a tax cut.ÊNow, Alan Greenspan, who I think has done a terrific job in monetary policy, supports the president's tax cut.ÊI don't.ÊI support it for the middle class, not that part of it that goes to people earning more than $200,000 a year.
KERRY:ÊAnd when I roll it back and we invest in the things that I have talked about to move our economy, we're going to grow sufficiently, it would begin to cut the deficit in half, and we get back to where we were at the end of the 1990s when we balanced the budget and paid down the debt of this country.
Now, we can do that.
Now, if later on after a period of time we find that Social Security is in trouble, we'll pull together the top experts of the country.ÊWe'll do exactly what we did it he 1990s.ÊAnd we'll make whatever adjustment is necessary.
But the first and most important thing is to start creating jobs in America.ÊThe jobs the president is creating pay $9,000 less than the jobs that we're losing.ÊAnd this is the first president in 72 years to preside over an economy in America that has lost jobs, 1.6 million jobs.Ê
Eleven other presidents -- six Democrats and five Republicans -- had wars, had recessions, had great difficulties; none of them lost jobs the way this president has.Ê
KERRY:ÊI have a plan to put America back to work.ÊAnd if we're fiscally responsible and put America back to work, we're going to fix Social Security.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊHe forgot to tell you he voted to tax Social Security benefits more than one time.ÊI didn't hear any plan to fix Social Security.ÊI heard more of the same.
He talks about middle-class tax cuts.ÊThat's exactly where the tax cuts went.ÊMost of the tax cuts went to low- and middle-income Americans.ÊAnd now the tax code is more fair.ÊTwenty percent of the upper-income people pay about 80 percent of the taxes in America today because of how we structured the tax cuts.
People listening out there know the benefits of the tax cuts we passed.ÊIf you have a child, you got tax relief.ÊIf you're married, you got tax relief.ÊIf you pay any tax at all, you got tax relief. All of which was opposed by my opponent.Ê
And the tax relief was important to spur consumption and investment to get us out of this recession.
BUSH:ÊPeople need to remember:ÊSix months prior to my arrival, the stock market started to go down.ÊAnd it was one of the largest declines in our history.ÊAnd then we had a recession and we got attacked, which cost us 1 million jobs.
But we acted.ÊI led the Congress.ÊWe passed tax relief.ÊAnd now this economy is growing.ÊWe added 1.9 million new jobs over the last 13 months.Ê
Sure, there's more work to do.ÊBut the way to make sure our economy grows is not to raise taxes on small-business owners.ÊIt's not to increase the scope of the federal government.ÊIt's to make sure we have fiscal sanity and keep taxes low.
SCHIEFFER:ÊLet's go to a new question, Mr. President.Ê
I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question.ÊAnd it is about immigration.Ê
I'm told that at least 8,000 people cross our borders illegally every day.ÊSome people believe this is a security issue, as you know. Some believe it's an economic issue.ÊSome see it as a human-rights issue.
SCHIEFFER:ÊHow do you see it?ÊAnd what we need to do about it?
BUSH:ÊI see it as a serious problem.ÊI see it as a security issue, I see it as an economic issue, and I see it as a human-rights issue.Ê
We're increasing the border security of the United States.ÊWe've got 1,000 more Border Patrol agents on the southern border.
We're using new equipment.ÊWe're using unmanned vehicles to spot people coming across.Ê
And we'll continue to do so over the next four years.ÊIt's a subject I'm very familiar with.ÊAfter all, I was a border governor for a while.
Many people are coming to this country for economic reasons. They're coming here to work.ÊIf you can make 50 cents in the heart of Mexico, for example, or make $5 here in America, $5.15, you're going to come here if you're worth your salt, if you want to put food on the table for your families.ÊAnd that's what's happening.
BUSH:ÊAnd so in order to take pressure off the borders, in order to make the borders more secure, I believe there ought to be a temporary worker card that allows a willing worker and a willing employer to mate up, so long as there's not an American willing to do that job, to join up in order to be able to fulfill the employers' needs.Ê
That has the benefit of making sure our employers aren't breaking the law as they try to fill their workforce needs.ÊIt makes sure that the people coming across the border are humanely treated, that they're not kept in the shadows of our society, that they're able to go back and forth to see their families.ÊSee, the card, it'll have a period of time attached to it.Ê
It also means it takes pressure off the border.ÊIf somebody is coming here to work with a card, it means they're not going to have to sneak across the border.ÊIt means our border patrol will be more likely to be able to focus on doing their job.Ê
Now, it's very important for our citizens to also know that I don't believe we ought to have amnesty.ÊI don't think we ought to reward illegal behavior.ÊThere are plenty of people standing in line to become a citizen.ÊAnd we ought not to crowd these people ahead of them in line.Ê
BUSH:ÊIf they want to become a citizen, they can stand in line, too.
And here is where my opponent and I differ.ÊIn September 2003, he supported amnesty for illegal aliens.
SCHIEFFER:ÊTime's up.
Senator?
KERRY:ÊLet me just answer one part of the last question quickly, and then I'll come to immigration.
The American middle class family isn't making it right now, Bob. And what the president said about the tax cuts has been wiped out by the increase in health care, the increase in gasoline, the increase in tuitions, the increase in prescription drugs.
The fact is, the take home pay of a typical American family as a share of national income is lower than it's been since 1929.ÊAnd the take home pay of the richest .1 percent of Americans is the highest it's been since 1928.
Under President Bush, the middle class has seen their tax burden go up and the wealthiest's tax burden has gone down.ÊNow that's wrong.
Now with respect to immigration reform, the president broke his promise on immigration reform.ÊHe said he would reform it.ÊFour years later he is now promising another plan.
KERRY:ÊHere's what I'll do:ÊNumber one, the borders are more leaking today than they were before 9/11.ÊThe fact is, we haven't done what we need to do to toughen up our borders, and I will.Ê
Secondly, we need a guest-worker program, but if it's all we have, it's not going to solve the problem.
The second thing we need is to crack down on illegal hiring. It's against the law in the United States to hire people illegally, and we ought to be enforcing that law properly.
And thirdly, we need an earned-legalization program for people who have been here for a long time, stayed out of trouble, got a job, paid their taxes, and their kids are American.ÊWe got to start moving them toward full citizenship, out of the shadows.
SCHIEFFER:ÊDo you want to respond, Mr. President?
BUSH:ÊWell, to say that the borders are not as protected as they were prior to September the 11th shows he doesn't know the borders. They're much better protected today than they were when I was the governor of Texas.Ê
BUSH:ÊWe have much more manpower and much more equipment there.Ê
He just doesn't understand how the borders work, evidently, to say that.ÊThat is an outrageous claim.
And we'll continue to protect our borders.ÊWe're continuing to increase manpower and equipment.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator?
KERRY:ÊFour thousand people a day are coming across the border.Ê
The fact is that we now have people from the Middle East, allegedly, coming across the border.
And we're not doing what we ought to do in terms of the technology.ÊWe have iris-identification technology.ÊWe have thumbprint, fingerprint technology today.ÊWe can know who the people are, that they're really the people they say they are when the cross the border.Ê
We could speed it up.ÊThere are huge delays.
The fact is our borders are not as secure as they ought to be, and I'll make them secure.
SCHIEFFER:ÊNext question to you, Senator Kerry.
The gap between rich and poor is growing wider.ÊMore people are dropping into poverty.ÊYet the minimum wage has been stuck at, what, $5.15 an hour now for about seven years.ÊIs it time to raise it?
KERRY:ÊWell, I'm glad you raised that question.Ê
It's long overdue time to raise the minimum wage.Ê
And, America, this is one of those issues that separates the president and myself.
KERRY:ÊWe have fought to try to raise the minimum wage in the last years.ÊBut the Republican leadership of the House and Senate won't even let us have a vote on it.ÊWe're not allowed to vote on it. They don't want to raise the minimum wage.ÊThe minimum wage is the lowest minimum wage value it has been in our nation in 50 years.
If we raise the minimum wage, which I will do over several years to $7 an hour, 9.2 million women who are trying to raise their families would earn another $3,800 a year.
The president has denied 9.2 million women $3,800 a year, but he doesn't hesitate to fight for $136,000 to a millionaire.
KERRY:ÊOne percent of America got $89 billion last year in a tax cut, but people working hard, playing by the rules, trying to take care of their kids, family values, that we're supposed to value so much in America -- I'm tired of politicians who talk about family values and don't value families.
What we need to do is raise the minimum wage.ÊWe also need to hold onto equal pay.ÊWomen work for 76 cents on the dollar for the same work that men do.ÊThat's not right in America.
And we had an initiative that we were working on to raise women's pay.ÊThey've cut it off.ÊThey've stopped it.ÊThey don't enforce these kinds of things.
Now, I think that it a matter of fundamental right that if we raise the minimum wage, 15 million Americans would be positively affected.ÊWe'd put money into the hands of people who work hard, who obey the rules, who play for the American Dream.
And if we did that, we'd have more consumption ability in America, which is what we need right in order to kick our economy into gear.ÊI will fight tooth and nail to pass the minimum wage.
BUSH:ÊActually, Mitch McConnell had a minimum-wage plan that I supported that would have increased the minimum wage.Ê
But let me talk about what's really important for the worker you're referring to.ÊAnd that's to make sure the education system works.ÊIt's to make sure we raise standards.Ê
Listen, the No Child Left Behind Act is really a jobs act when you think about it.ÊThe No Child Left Behind Act says, "We'll raise standards.ÊWe'll increase federal spending.ÊBut in return for extra spending, we now want people to measure -- states and local jurisdictions to measure to show us whether or not a child can read or write or add and subtract."
You cannot solve a problem unless you diagnose the problem.ÊAnd we weren't diagnosing problems.ÊAnd therefore just kids were being shuffled through the school.Ê
And guess who would get shuffled through?ÊChildren whose parents wouldn't speak English as a first language just move through.Ê
BUSH:ÊMany inner-city kids just move through.ÊWe've stopped that practice now by measuring early.ÊAnd when we find a problem, we spend extra money to correct it.
I remember a lady in Houston, Texas, told me, "Reading is the new civil right," and she's right.ÊIn order to make sure people have jobs for the 21st century, we've got to get it right in the education system, and we're beginning to close a minority achievement gap now.Ê
You see, we'll never be able to compete in the 21st century unless we have an education system that doesn't quit on children, an education system that raises standards, an education that makes sure there's excellence in every classroom.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, I want to go back to something Senator Kerry said earlier tonight and ask a follow-up of my own.ÊHe said -- and this will be a new question to you -- he said that you had never said whether you would like to overturn Roe v. Wade.ÊSo I'd ask you directly, would you like to?
BUSH:ÊWhat he's asking me is, will I have a litmus test for my judges?ÊAnd the answer is, no, I will not have a litmus test.ÊI will pick judges who will interpret the Constitution, but I'll have no litmus test.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry, you'd like to respond?
KERRY:ÊIs that a new question or a 30-second question?
SCHIEFFER:ÊThat's a new question for Senator -- for President Bush.
KERRY:ÊWhich time limit...
SCHIEFFER:ÊYou have 90 seconds.
KERRY:ÊThank you very much.
Well, again, the president didn't answer the question.
KERRY:ÊI'll answer it straight to America.ÊI'm not going to appoint a judge to the Court who's going to undo a constitutional right, whether it's the First Amendment, or the Fifth Amendment, or some other right that's given under our courts today -- under the Constitution.ÊAnd I believe that the right of choice is a constitutional right.Ê
So I don't intend to see it undone.Ê
Clearly, the president wants to leave in ambivalence or intends to undo it.
But let me go a step further.ÊWe have a long distance yet to travel in terms of fairness in America.ÊI don't know how you can govern in this country when you look at New York City and you see that 50 percent of the black males there are unemployed, when you see 40 percent of Hispanic children -- of black children in some cities -- dropping out of high school.Ê
KERRY:ÊAnd yet the president who talks about No Child Left Behind refused to fully fund -- by $28 billion -- that particular program so you can make a difference in the lives of those young people.
Now right here in Arizona, that difference would have been $131 million to the state of Arizona to help its kids be able to have better education and to lift the property tax burden from its citizens.ÊThe president reneged on his promise to fund No Child Left Behind.Ê
He'll tell you he's raised the money, and he has.ÊBut he didn't put in what he promised, and that makes a difference in the lives of our children.
SCHIEFFER:ÊYes, sir?
BUSH:ÊTwo things.ÊOne, he clearly has a litmus test for his judges, which I disagree with.Ê
And secondly, only a liberal senator from Massachusetts would say that a 49 percent increase in funding for education was not enough.Ê
We've increased funds.ÊBut more importantly, we've reformed the system to make sure that we solve problems early, before they're too late.
BUSH:ÊHe talked about the unemployed.ÊAbsolutely we've got to make sure they get educated.Ê
He talked about children whose parents don't speak English as a first language?ÊAbsolutely we've got to make sure they get educated.
And that's what the No Child Left Behind Act does.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator?
KERRY:ÊYou don't measure it by a percentage increase.ÊMr. President, you measure it by whether you're getting the job done.Ê
Five hundred thousand kids lost after-school programs because of your budget.Ê
Now, that's not in my gut.ÊThat's not in my value system, and certainly not so that the wealthiest people in America can walk away with another tax cut.Ê
$89 billion last year to the top 1 percent of Americans, but kids lost their after-school programs.ÊYou be the judge.
SCHIEFFER:ÊAll right, let's go to another question.ÊAnd it is to Senator Kerry.Ê
You have two minutes, sir.
Senator, the last debate, President Bush said he did not favor a draft.ÊYou agreed with him.ÊBut our National Guard and Reserve forces are being severely strained because many of them are being held beyond their enlistments.ÊSome of them say that it's a back-door draft.
SCHIEFFER:ÊIs there any relief that could be offered to these brave Americans and their families?Ê
If you became president, Senator Kerry, what would you do about this situation of holding National Guard and Reservists for these extended periods of time and these repeated call-ups that they're now facing?
KERRY:ÊWell, I think the fact that they're facing these repeated call-ups, some of them two and three deployments, and there's a stop- loss policy that prevents people from being able to get out when their time was up, is a reflection of the bad judgment this president exercised in how he has engaged in the world and deployed our forces.Ê
Our military is overextended.ÊNine out of 10 active-duty Army divisions are either in Iraq, going to Iraq or have come back from Iraq.ÊOne way or the other, they're wrapped up in it.Ê
Now, I've proposed adding two active-duty divisions to the Armed Forces of the United States -- one combat, one support.Ê
KERRY:ÊIn addition, I'm going to double the number of Special Forces so that we can fight a more effective war on terror, with less pressure on the National Guard and Reserve.ÊAnd what I would like to do is see the National Guard and Reserve be deployed differently here in our own country.ÊThere's much we can do with them with respect to homeland security.ÊWe ought to be doing that.ÊAnd that would relieve an enormous amount of pressure.Ê
But the most important thing to relieve the pressure on all of the armed forces is frankly to run a foreign policy that recognizes that America is strongest when we are working with real alliances, when we are sharing the burdens of the world by working through our statesmanship at the highest levels and our diplomacy to bring other nations to our side.Ê
I've said it before, I say it again:ÊI believe the president broke faith to the American people in the way that he took this nation to war.ÊHe said he would work through a real alliance.ÊHe said in Cincinnati we would plan carefully, we would take every precaution. Well, we didn't.ÊAnd the result is our forces today are overextended.Ê
KERRY:ÊThe fact is that he did not choose to go to war as a last result.ÊAnd America now is paying, already $120 billion, up to $200 billion before we're finished and much more probably.ÊAnd that is the result of this president taking his eye off of Osama bin Laden.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊThe best way to take the pressure off our troops is to succeed in Iraq, is to train Iraqis so they can do the hard work of democracy, is to give them a chance to defend their country, which is precisely what we're doing.ÊWe'll have 125,000 troops trained by the end of this year.
I remember going on an airplane in Bangor, Maine, to say thanks to the reservists and Guard that were headed overseas from Tennessee and North Carolina, Georgia.ÊSome of them had been there before.Ê
The people I talked to their spirits were high.ÊThey didn't view their service as a back-door draft.ÊThey viewed their service as an opportunity to serve their country.
BUSH:ÊMy opponent, the senator, talks about foreign policy.Ê
In our first debate he proposed America pass a global test.ÊIn order to defend ourselves, we'd have to get international approval. That's one of the major differences we have about defending our country.
I'll work with allies.ÊI'll work with friends.ÊWe'll continue to build strong coalitions.ÊBut I will never turn over our national- security decisions to leaders of other countries.
We'll be resolute, we'll be strong, and we'll wage a comprehensive war against the terrorists.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator?
KERRY:ÊI have never suggested a test where we turn over our security to any nation.ÊIn fact, I've said the opposite:ÊI will never turn the security of the United States over to any nation.ÊNo nation will ever have a veto over us.
KERRY:ÊBut I think it makes sense, I think most Americans in their guts know, that we ought to pass a sort of truth standard. That's how you gain legitimacy with your own countrypeople, and that's how you gain legitimacy in the world.
But I'll never fail to protect the United States of America.
BUSH:ÊIn 1990, there was a vast coalition put together to run Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait.ÊThe international community, the international world said this is the right thing to do, but when it came time to authorize the use of force on the Senate floor, my opponent voted against the use of force.Ê
Apparently you can't pass any test under his vision of the world.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, new question, two minutes.Ê
You said that if Congress would vote to extend the ban on assault weapons, that you'd sign the legislation, but you did nothing to encourage the Congress to extend it.ÊWhy not?
BUSH:ÊActually, I made my intentions -- made my views clear.ÊI did think we ought to extend the assault weapons ban, and was told the fact that the bill was never going to move, because Republicans and Democrats were against the assault weapon ban, people of both parties.
BUSH:ÊI believe law-abiding citizens ought to be able to own a gun.ÊI believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere to make sure that guns don't get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them.
But the best way to protect our citizens from guns is to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns.ÊAnd that's why early in my administration I called the attorney general and the U.S. attorneys and said:ÊPut together a task force all around the country to prosecute those who commit crimes with guns.ÊAnd the prosecutions are up by about 68 percent -- I believe -- is the number.Ê
Neighborhoods are safer when we crack down on people who commit crimes with guns.Ê
To me, that's the best way to secure America.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator?
KERRY:ÊI believe it was a failure of presidential leadership not to reauthorize the assault weapons ban.
KERRY:ÊI am a hunter.ÊI'm a gun owner.ÊI've been a hunter since I was a kid, 12, 13 years old.ÊAnd I respect the Second Amendment and I will not tamper with the Second Amendment.
But I'll tell you this.ÊI'm also a former law enforcement officer.ÊI ran one of the largest district attorney's offices in America, one of the ten largest.ÊI put people behind bars for the rest of their life.ÊI've broken up organized crime.ÊI know something about prosecuting.
And most of the law enforcement agencies in America wanted that assault weapons ban.ÊThey don't want to go into a drug bust and be facing an AK-47.Ê
I was hunting in Iowa last year with a sheriff from one of the counties there, and he pointed to a house in back of us, and said, "See the house over?ÊWe just did a drug bust a week earlier, and the guy we arrested had an AK-47 lying on the bed right beside him."
Because of the president's decision today, law enforcement officers will walk into a place that will be more dangerous. Terrorists can now come into America and go to a gun show and, without even a background check, buy an assault weapon today.
KERRY:ÊAnd that's what Osama bin Laden's handbook said, because we captured it in Afghanistan.ÊIt encouraged them to do it.Ê
So I believe America's less safe.
If Tom DeLay or someone in the House said to me, "Sorry, we don't have the votes," I'd have said, "Then we're going to have a fight."Ê
And I'd have taken it out to the country and I'd have had every law enforcement officer in the country visit those congressmen.ÊWe'd have won what Bill Clinton won.
SCHIEFFER:ÊLet's go to a new question.ÊFor you, Senator Kerry, two minutes.Ê
Affirmative action:ÊDo you see a need for affirmative action programs, or have we moved far enough along that we no longer need to use race and gender as a factor in school admissions and federal and state contracts and so on?
KERRY:ÊNo, Bob, regrettably, we have not moved far enough along.Ê
And I regret to say that this administration has even blocked steps that could help us move further along.ÊI'll give you an example.Ê
KERRY:ÊI served on the Small Business Committee for a long time. I was chairman of it once.ÊNow I'm the senior Democrat on it.ÊWe used to -- you know, we have a goal there for minority set-aside programs, to try to encourage ownership in the country.ÊThey don't reach those goals.ÊThey don't even fight to reach those goals. They've tried to undo them.Ê
The fact is that in too many parts of our country, we still have discrimination.ÊAnd affirmative action is not just something that applies to people of color.ÊSome people have a mistaken view of it in America.ÊIt also is with respect to women, it's with respect to other efforts to try to reach out and be inclusive in our country.
I think that we have a long way to go, regrettably.ÊIf you look at what's happened -- we've made progress, I want to say that at the same time.Ê
During the Clinton years, as you may recall, there was a fight over affirmative action.ÊAnd there were many people, like myself, who opposed quotas, who felt there were places where it was overreaching. So we had a policy called "Mend it, don't end it."ÊWe fixed it.Ê
KERRY:ÊAnd we fixed it for a reason:Êbecause there are too many people still in this country who feel the stark resistance of racism, and so we have a distance to travel.ÊAs president, I will make certain we travel it.
Now, let me just share something.ÊThis president is the first president ever, I think, not to meet with the NAACP.ÊThis is a president who hasn't met with the Black Congressional Caucus.ÊThis is a president who has not met with the civil rights leadership of our country.
If a president doesn't reach out and bring people in and be inclusive, then how are we going to get over those barriers?ÊI see that as part of my job as president, and I'll make my best effort to do it.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊWell, first of all, it is just not true that I haven't met with the Black Congressional Caucus.ÊI met with the Black Congressional Caucus at the White House.Ê
And secondly, like my opponent, I don't agree we ought to have quotas.ÊI agree, we shouldn't have quotas.
BUSH:ÊBut we ought to have an aggressive effort to make sure people are educated, to make sure when they get out of high school there's Pell Grants available for them, which is what we've done. We've expanded Pell Grants by a million students.Ê
Do you realize today in America, we spend $73 billion to help 10 million low- and middle-income families better afford college?Ê
That's the access I believe is necessary, is to make sure every child learns to read, write, add and subtract early, to be able to build on that education by going to college so they can start their careers with a college diploma.Ê
I believe the best way to help our small businesses is not only through small-business loans, which we have increased since I've been the president of the United States, but to unbundle government contracts so people have a chance to be able to bid and receive a contract to help get their business going.
Minority ownership of businesses are up, because we created an environment for the entrepreneurial spirit to be strong.Ê
BUSH:ÊI believe part of a hopeful society is one in which somebody owns something.ÊToday in America more minorities own a home than ever before.ÊAnd that's hopeful, and that's positive.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President, let's go to a new question.
You were asked before the invasion, or after the invasion, of Iraq if you'd checked with your dad.ÊAnd I believe, I don't remember the quote exactly, but I believe you said you had checked with a higher authority.
I would like to ask you, what part does your faith play on your policy decisions?
BUSH:ÊFirst, my faith plays a lot -- a big part in my life.ÊAnd that's, when I answering that question, what I was really saying to the person was that I pray a lot.ÊAnd I do.
And my faith is a very -- it's very personal.ÊI pray for strength.ÊI pray for wisdom.ÊI pray for our troops in harm's way.ÊI pray for my family.ÊI pray for my little girls.
But I'm mindful in a free society that people can worship if they want to or not.ÊYou're equally an American if you choose to worship an almighty and if you choose not to.
BUSH:ÊIf you're a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you're equally an American.ÊThat's the great thing about America, is the right to worship the way you see fit.Ê
Prayer and religion sustain me.ÊI receive calmness in the storms of the presidency.Ê
I love the fact that people pray for me and my family all around the country.ÊSomebody asked me one time, "Well, how do you know?"ÊI said, "I just feel it."
Religion is an important part.ÊI never want to impose my religion on anybody else.Ê
But when I make decisions, I stand on principle, and the principles are derived from who I am.
I believe we ought to love our neighbor like we love ourself, as manifested in public policy through the faith-based initiative where we've unleashed the armies of compassion to help heal people who hurt.
BUSH:ÊI believe that God wants everybody to be free.ÊThat's what I believe.Ê
And that's been part of my foreign policy.ÊIn Afghanistan, I believe that the freedom there is a gift from the Almighty.ÊAnd I can't tell you how encouraged I am to see freedom on the march.Ê
And so my principles that I make decisions on are a part of me, and religion is a part of me.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊWell, I respect everything that the president has said and certainly respect his faith.ÊI think it's important and I share it.ÊI think that he just said that freedom is a gift from the Almighty.Ê
KERRY:ÊEverything is a gift from the Almighty.ÊAnd as I measure the words of the Bible -- and we all do; different people measure different things -- the Koran, the Torah, or, you know, Native Americans who gave me a blessing the other day had their own special sense of connectedness to a higher being.ÊAnd people all find their ways to express it.Ê
I was taught -- I went to a church school and I was taught that the two greatest commandments are:ÊLove the Lord, your God, with all your mind, your body and your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself.ÊAnd frankly, I think we have a lot more loving of our neighbor to do in this country and on this planet.Ê
We have a separate and unequal school system in the United States of America.ÊThere's one for the people who have, and there's one for the people who don't have.ÊAnd we're struggling with that today.Ê
And the president and I have a difference of opinion about how we live out our sense of our faith.Ê
KERRY:ÊI talked about it earlier when I talked about the works and faith without works being dead.
I think we've got a lot more work to do.ÊAnd as president, I will always respect everybody's right to practice religion as they choose -- or not to practice -- because that's part of America.
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry, after 9/11 -- and this is a new question for you -- it seemed to me that the country came together as I've never seen it come together since World War II.ÊBut some of that seems to have melted away.ÊI think it's fair to say we've become pretty polarized, perhaps because of the political season.
But if you were elected president, or whoever is elected president, will you set a priority in trying to bring the nation back together?ÊOr what would be your attitude on that?
KERRY:ÊVery much so.
Let me pay a compliment to the president, if I may.ÊI think in those days after 9/11, I thought the president did a terrific job. And I really was moved, as well as impressed, by the speech that he gave to the Congress.
KERRY:ÊAnd I think the hug Tom Daschle gave him at that moment was about as genuine a sense of there being no Democrats, no Republicans, we were all just Americans.ÊThat's where we were.Ê
That's not where we are today.ÊI regret to say that the president who called himself a uniter, not a divider, is now presiding over the most divided America in the recent memory of our country. I've never seen such ideological squabbles in the Congress of the United States.ÊI've never seen members of a party locked out of meetings the way they're locked out today.
We have to change that.ÊAnd as president, I am committed to changing that.ÊI don't care if the idea comes from the other side or this side.ÊI think we have to come together and work to change it.Ê
And I've done that.ÊOver 20 years in the United States Senate, I've worked with John McCain, who's sitting here, I've worked with other colleagues.ÊI've reached across the aisle.ÊI've tried to find the common ground, because that's what makes us strong as Americans.
KERRY:ÊAnd if Americans trust me with the presidency, I can pledge to you, we will have the most significant effort, openly -- not secret meetings in the White House with special interests, not ideologically driven efforts to push people aside -- but a genuine effort to try to restore America's hope and possibilities by bringing people together.
And one of the ways we're going to do it is, I'm going to work with my friend, John McCain, to further campaign finance reform so we get these incredible amounts of money out of the system and open it up to average people, so America is really represented by the people who make up America.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊMy biggest disappointment in Washington is how partisan the town is.ÊI had a record of working with Republicans and Democrats as the governor of Texas, and I was hopeful I'd be able to do the same thing.Ê
BUSH:ÊAnd we made good progress early on.ÊThe No Child Left Behind Act, incredibly enough, was good work between me and my administration and people like Senator Ted Kennedy.Ê
And we worked together with Democrats to relieve the tax burden on the middle class and all who pay taxes in order to make sure this economy continues to grow.
But Washington is a tough town.ÊAnd the way I view it is there's a lot of entrenched special interests there, people who are, you know, on one side of the issue or another and they spend enormous sums of money and they convince different senators to taut their way or different congressmen to talk about their issue, and they dig in.Ê
I'll continue, in the four years, to continue to try to work to do so.Ê
My opponent said this is a bitterly divided time.ÊPretty divided in the 2000 election.ÊSo in other words, it's pretty divided during the 1990s as well.Ê
BUSH:ÊWe're just in a period -- we've got to work to bring it -- my opponent keeps mentioning John McCain, and I'm glad he did.ÊJohn McCain is for me for president because he understands I have the right view in winning the war on terror and that my plan will succeed in Iraq.ÊAnd my opponent has got a plan of retreat and defeat in Iraq.
SCHIEFFER:ÊWe've come, gentlemen, to our last question.ÊAnd it occurred to me as I came to this debate tonight that the three of us share something.ÊAll three of us are surrounded by very strong women. We're all married to strong women.ÊEach of us have two daughters that make us very proud.
I'd like to ask each of you, what is the most important thing you've learned from these strong women?
BUSH:ÊTo listen to them.
(LAUGHTER)
To stand up straight and not scowl.
(LAUGHTER)
I love the strong women around me.ÊI can't tell you how much I love my wife and our daughters.Ê
BUSH:ÊI am -- you know it's really interesting.ÊI tell the people on the campaign trail, when I asked Laura to marry me, she said, "Fine, just so long as I never have to give a speech."ÊI said, "OK, you've got a deal."ÊFortunately, she didn't hold me to that deal.ÊAnd she's out campaigning along with our girls.ÊAnd she speaks English a lot better than I do.ÊI think people understand what she's saying.Ê
But they see a compassionate, strong, great first lady in Laura Bush.ÊI can't tell you how lucky I am.ÊWhen I met her in the backyard at Joe and Jan O'Neill's in Midland, Texas, it was the classic backyard barbecue.ÊO'Neill said, "Come on over.ÊI think you'll find somebody who might interest you."ÊSo I said all right.ÊI walked over there.ÊThere was only four of us there.ÊAnd not only did she interest me, I guess you would say it was love at first sight.Ê
SCHIEFFER:ÊSenator Kerry?
KERRY:ÊWell, I guess the president and you and I are three examples of lucky people who married up.Ê
(LAUGHTER)
And some would say maybe me more so than others.
(LAUGHTER)
But I can take it.
(LAUGHTER)
Can I say, if I could just say a word about a woman that you didn't ask about, but my mom passed away a couple years ago, just before I was deciding to run.ÊAnd she was in the hospital, and I went in to talk to her and tell her what I was thinking of doing.Ê
And she looked at me from her hospital bed and she just looked at me and she said, "Remember:Êintegrity, integrity, integrity."ÊThose are the three words that she left me with.Ê
KERRY:ÊAnd my daughters and my wife are people who just are filled with that sense of what's right, what's wrong.Ê
They also kick me around.ÊThey keep me honest.ÊThey don't let me get away with anything.ÊI can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that.Ê
And I'm blessed, as I think the president is blessed, as I said last time.ÊI've watched him with the first lady, who I admire a great deal, and his daughters.ÊHe's a great father.ÊAnd I think we're both very lucky.
SCHIEFFER:ÊWell, gentlemen, that brings us to the closing statements.Ê
Senator Kerry, I believe you're first.
KERRY:ÊMy fellow Americans, as you heard from Bob Schieffer a moment ago, America is being tested by division.ÊMore than ever, we need to be united as a country.Ê
KERRY:ÊAnd, like Franklin Roosevelt, I don't care whether an idea is a Republican idea or a Democrat idea.ÊI just care whether it works for America and whether it's going to make us stronger.
These are dangerous times.ÊI believe I offer tested, strong leadership that can calm the waters of the troubled world.ÊAnd I believe that we can together do things that are within the grasp of Americans.Ê
We can lift our schools up.ÊWe can create jobs that pay more than the jobs we're losing overseas.ÊWe can have health care for all Americans.ÊWe can further the cause of equality in our nation.
Let me just make it clear:ÊI will never allow any country to have a veto over our security.ÊJust as I fought for our country as a young man, with the same passion I will fight to defend this nation that I love.Ê
And, with faith in God and with conviction in the mission of America, I believe that we can reach higher.ÊI believe we can do better.Ê
KERRY:ÊI think the greatest possibilities of our country, our dreams and our hopes, are out there just waiting for us to grab onto them.ÊAnd I ask you to embark on that journey with me.Ê
I ask you for your trust.ÊI ask you for your help.ÊI ask you to allow me the privilege of leading this great nation of ours, of helping us to be stronger here at home and to be respected again in the world and, most of all, to be safer forever.Ê
Thank you.ÊGoodnight.ÊAnd God bless the United States of America.
SCHIEFFER:ÊMr. President?
BUSH:ÊIn the Oval Office, there's a painting by a friend of Laura and mine named -- by Tom Lee.ÊAnd it's a West Texas painting, a painting of a mountain scene.Ê
And he said this about it.Ê
BUSH:ÊHe said, "Sara and I live on the east side of the mountain.ÊIt's the sunrise side, not the sunset side.ÊIt's the side to see the day that is coming, not to see the day that is gone."Ê
I love the optimism in that painting, because that's how I feel about America.ÊAnd we've been through a lot together during the last 3 3/4 years.ÊWe've come through a recession, a stock market decline, an attack on our country.Ê
And yet, because of the hard work of the American people and good policies, this economy is growing.ÊOver the next four years, we'll make sure the economy continues to grow.Ê
We reformed our school system, and now there's an achievement gap in America that's beginning to close.ÊOver the next four years, we'll continue to insist on excellence in every classroom in America so that our children have a chance to realize the great promise of America.Ê
Over the next four years, we'll continue to work to make sure health care is available and affordable.Ê
Over the next four years, we'll continue to rally the armies of compassion, to help heal the hurt that exists in some of our country's neighborhoods.Ê
I'm optimistic that we'll win the war on terror, but I understand it requires firm resolve and clear purpose.ÊWe must never waver in the face of this enemy that -- these ideologues of hate.
And as we pursue the enemy wherever it exists, we'll also spread freedom and liberty.ÊWe got great faith in the ability of liberty to transform societies, to convert a hostile world to a peaceful world.Ê
My hope for America is a prosperous America, a hopeful America and a safer world.
I want to thank you for listening tonight.Ê
I'm asking for your vote.Ê
God bless you.
SCHIEFFER:ÊThank you, Mr. President.Ê
Thank you, Senator Kerry.
Well, that brings these debates to a close, but the campaign goes on.Ê
I want to wish both of you the very best of luck between now and Election Day.
That's it for us from Arizona State University in Tempe, Arizona. I'm Bob Schieffer at CBS News.Ê
Goodnight, everyone.
